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How marketing can lead sales, customer support & product with Stephanie Cox, VP of Sales and Marketing at Lumavate

Can one person successfully lead Sales + Marketing + Customer Support + Product? 🤔

This week, Edward had a chance to chat with Stephanie Cox, VP of Sales and Marketing at Lumavate. 

Stephanie has a unique role as a SaaS marketing leader. She leads Marketing as well as four other essential departments at Lumavate. 

In this episode, you’ll hear:

🚀 How and why she ended up taking such a broad role

🚀 The benefits of having marketing lead sales

🚀 How her teams work together

🚀 What her typical week looks like 

🚀 And how her teams move at a super-fast pace and just get 💩 done


There’s all this and a whole lot more on this new episode of the Growth Hub Podcast.

Don’t miss out on our upcoming episodes! Subscribe now on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Spotify to The Growth Hub podcast ❤️ 




The Four Agreements, by Miguel Ruiz

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Advance B2B

Follow The Growth Hub on Twitter 

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Transcript of the episode

Edward: Welcome to another episode of the Growth Hub podcast. And it's my pleasure to welcome Stephanie Cox to the show who is VP of sales and marketing at Lumavate. So, Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us today here on the Growth Hub podcast.

Stephanie: Thanks for having me, excited to chat with you.

Edward: Yeah, likewise, and I think this is going to be an awesome chat because your role is quite different to many SaaS marketing leaders, since you not only lead marketing, but also sales, customer success, customer support, and product. So to kick things off, why did you decide to bring all those roles together under one person's responsibility?

Stephanie: Yeah, I wish I could take credit for how it happened and say that it was super intentional, but it kind of wasn't at first. So when I started at Lumavate, I was brought in to lead marketing. And so I was the VP of marketing about 4 years ago. And personality-wise, and I've been this way for about 10 years, I like to solve problems. And I find ways in an organisation, whether that's in my area of responsibility or not, where problems exist or challenges, and I find ways to make it better. So I tend to really immerse myself throughout the entire organisation. And that's what I did at Lumavate early on. So it became really tight with our services team or success team or product team and our sales team. And about 18 months into my time at Lumavate, our head of sales left and I had been during that time on almost all major sales deals, worked hand in hand with our VP of sales. I was providing constant help and feedback, or my team might as well to our sales organisation.

Stephanie: And so when our head of sales left, our CEO came to me and he said, "What do you think about taking over sales?" And at first, I was like, "Is this a serious question?" Because it was a little unexpected. It's very rare for you to see marketing leaders that take over sales. It's very normal for sales leaders to take over marketing, but I've really seen it rarely in the reverse. And I thought about it for probably 30 seconds and it's like, "Okay, interested. Tell me more." And we talked a little bit about it and he asked me to think about it that night. And in typical Stephanie fashion, I went home and talked to my husband about it, and talked to a couple of good confidants about it, and had like a five-page plan the next day of how I would run the sales organisation.

Stephanie: And that's really how I kind of took over sales. And from there, what started to happen is, like I said, I see areas for improvement organisations. And one of the challenges that we were having was the handoff between sales and services and support. And so what I did is, I wasn't over that area those people did not report to me, is I just started trying to heavily influence it. Putting processes in place to make it better and really taking over and managing the work until my philosophy is you do that until someone tells you to knock it off. And guess what? When you do great work, no one tells you to knock it off. They actually usually appreciate it. And that's what happened. And then it became, okay, so now you're going to officially take over success and support.

Stephanie: And then, from there probably six months after that, a similar thing was happening with product is I was starting to really help define the product roadmap more, which made sense. Because if you think about the role I had, I was the one talking to customers. My team was talking to customers from a marketing perspective, sales, and services, and support. So clearly I knew the most about what customers needed and I started heavily influencing the roadmap and then I started directing more of the roadmap and then it just really started to make sense for me to own product management overall. And that kind of happened as well.

Stephanie: So I didn't come into Lumavate four years ago with this plan of, I want to own these four buckets. I really just saw an opportunity to continue to improve the organisation. At first, how marketing and sales work together and then how sales and services work together. And really started to influence those areas until it became very clear that I was being highly successful doing that without a formal oversight. And having oversight of that team and having them report up to me and made the most sense for the business.

Stephanie: And so that's one of the things I always tell people who are looking to grow their career, is if you want additional responsibility, no one's going to give it to you. You have to find ways to take that responsibility. And the best way to do that is to find problems that your organisation is having and recommend solutions and start implementing them in a lot of cases. Because if it works, no one's going to tell you to stop it. I've been doing this for a long time. I think this philosophy I've been doing for over 10 years, and I've not been told a single time to knock it off, because people want success, right?

Stephanie: And if you can show that your idea works, great. They like to benefit that. Whereas if you take the other side, which is you just keep recommending ideas and you don't take the action to actually implement them, a lot of people will not say yes. They won't say no, but they won't say yes. And you kind of live in this purgatory state of there's lots of solutions, but no one's really doing anything. And so I just say, "I'm going to start doing stuff until someone tells me to stop it." So fingers crossed. No, one's told me that yet.

Edward: Exactly. I love that philosophy. Such good advice but so simple as well. And I think it's great how it all came about. And it was really a good point about how often sales leads marketing, but not so much the other way round and following from here, we talk a lot about sales, marketing alignment, but I guess you've come up with one pretty effective way to solve that issue. But can you tell us more specifically, based on what you're doing at Lumavate. What are the benefits of marketing and sales being led by one person and having marketing lead sales?

Stephanie: Yeah, I think the first thing I would tell you, the easiest way to get sales and marketing alignment is to have it led by one person, but I've also worked in situations, and at Lumavate too, where it's been led by two people and it have been highly successful. I think the key thing is, is making sure that your goals as a marketing leader and the goals of a sales leader align. And that typically is 99% of the time where the mismatch occurs. marketing care is oftentimes about leads. And a lot of SaaS companies and sales cares more about pipeline and close you want in business. And so when you have these two very different metrics for success, but a lot of times people are comped on you're going to struggle to get alignment. And I think that is the biggest problem with sales and marketing, not being aligned.

Stephanie: So what I like to tell people is marketing and sales both should own revenue. They both should own a number. Obviously, sales owns the big number. But marketing should commit to a portion of that. And that should be revenue that marketing is sourcing and driving to sales. And if you're in a product-led growth company, that could be revenue that marketing is responsible for closing completely themselves through the product. But when you start having people responsible for the same types of metrics, they talk number one, the same language, and then two, they have the same goals. And not just goals like on paper for the company, but goals individually. And what I mean by that is, my success and your success becomes tied to the same thing. So in order for me to be successful, you need to be successful.

Stephanie: And it really makes us more of a team. And I find that even when you're working as one big organisation in marketing and sales together, if you don't have metrics that the whole team feels like they can point to and say, "This is how I can impact this goal. This is how I can impact this one." You're going to have people that focus on different facets that are very specific to their role and not the bigger overall picture. So with my team, how I like to manage it, and I've done this for a long time, is I like to think about things, I call them rocks. You can call them whatever you want, but I like calling them rocks versus goals. And the rocks are really, what are these three to five things that we're really focused on this quarter? And when you lay those out, they have metrics tied to them. Sometimes they're tied to a certain, net revenue retention rate, or maybe it's tied to a certain number of net new logos. But what are these big rocks? Or a new, big product feature that's launching.

Stephanie: And then you need your entire team. So let's say I have four rocks for the quarter. Everyone on my team should be able to see how they can direct their work directly ties to three out of four of those rocks. Because if you accomplish that, what happens is everyone is on the same boat, rowing in the same direction at the same speed. And you get there faster and you're more successful faster, and everyone feels like you're actually working together. What I find a lot of times, especially when you talk about cascading goals, especially in large organisations, regardless of what type of system you use. OKR, V2MOM, a lot of times what ends up happening is you get so siloed in your goals. Yes. They all technically roll up, but you've lost sight of the bigger picture of what you're trying to accomplish. And you're so focused on what you're doing. You're not focused on how what you're doing touches 30 other people in the organisation, and how you're all doing it together.

Stephanie: And I think that's what's different for me is, I find when the whole team has the same rocks, we all get there at the same time. And we get there a lot faster, versus giving people, individual goals and metrics that they need to hit necessarily. Now for your sales organisation, that's a little different. So our sales organisation is part of our rocks, but then they also have individual quotas for the year. And individual, our sales team also happens to own renewals and upsells. They also have net revenue retention rates and upsell numbers they have to focus on. So they do have those individual numbers, but the whole team is accountable for the overall number for the quarter. So we were just sitting on a team call earlier this week and talking about where we're at for Q1. And the entire team, including my designer, is talking about how else we can help the sales team ensure that everyone hits their number.

Stephanie: It becomes a team effort. And I think that's what I've seen this whole philosophy around, one bringing all the organisations together, everyone is focused on the customer, number one. Regardless of, if you're marketing, sales, success or support. But then two, we're all focused on the exact same big items. How we might individually contribute to accomplishing them is different based on our role, but we're all still trying to drive the exact same thing. And there's no issue or lack of clarity around what we're trying to accomplish.

Edward: Yeah, that's great. I really love the rock framework there as well. And I would love to dig a little deeper. So if we go onto a practical level, how do marketing and sales actually work together at Lumavate?

Stephanie: Yeah, so really, really closely. So in a variety of different ways, I'll talk a little bit about our sales-led strategy and how that's worked together in the past. So as a sales-led organisation, which we had been for, in first four and a half years of our company's life. We did a lot of what most organisations do, which is marketing would run campaigns at target accounts, that we often worked on in conjunction with the sales organisation as identifying those accounts. And our goal was to get meetings, book demos, create a true pipeline. And one thing that I am really proud about is in that realm, we were creating a large portion, 75% plus of the pipeline for the sales organisation. And I think that shows you how effective you can be when you partner together.

Stephanie: And that included things such as, innovative campaigns that we have done with video direct mail, etc. But it also included partnering with them on the sales side of, what are ways that we can continue to impress the customer during that process. So for instance, our platform enables marketers to build mobile apps, so what are some concepts for their apps that we can maybe pull together for them as part of the sales process. That's something our marketing team did. What are some ideas that we could throw out of how they could think about using our platform? So how do we provide a little bit of marketing consulting, to help sales close those deals? So that's one way. And then I think the other big way is been, now we have really started to venture into product-led growth, which is very different and marketing and sales work very differently together now.

Stephanie: So marketing is really responsible instead of booking meetings, we don't think about that anymore, we don't book meetings anymore. All we focus on is creating free accounts. So really getting people into our freemium offering. And now we're focused on, one building those people in there and then figuring out what data on who's best using our platform, that we can then through automation convert in product. Or, as a second path through behaviours sent over to our sales team to convert more through a traditional sales process. And so we're working, on a daily basis. And a great example is last night. There was one of our customers on our free account, was asking some questions on chat, on our website, that marketing oversees. And so they were talking and working with the salesperson on it and getting that all scheduled and booked to make sure that everything was going to work out for them to have that next conversation about what they wanted. I think that's one example of how they work together in today's world.

Edward: Yeah. That's really, really cool to hear. So in terms of marketing, what is working for you right now and where are you investing your time and budget?

Stephanie: So SEO. I know that is not the most exciting marketing topic for a lot of us. It's not for me either when I think about it. No one gets excited about SEO or I guess, you know what? A lot of people do. But it can be hard to get excited about SEO because it's a long-term game. And the reason why I say that is, with SEO, people don't realise, investing in SEO doesn't give you a result tomorrow. It gives you results a couple of months from now, but it gives you long-term results. And as marketers and even executives. We're inclined for instant gratification. We want to do something, we want to see the leads come in tomorrow. So a lot of times people don't think about SEO that way, but I think it's one of the most underutilised marketing strategies for growth.

Stephanie: And the reason why I say that is a couple of things. We talk about intent data and all these other things, but there's nothing more true in the funnel than someone who's searching for a product like yours. So for us, when someone's searching for a no-code app platform, they are looking for a no-code app platform. Them downloading my pieces of content doesn't mean that they're looking for it. Then following me on social doesn't mean that. But when they started searching for it, there's a reason, not just because of their interests usually. And investing in SEO gives you the opportunity to really if you do it well and right. To show up on page one on Google, even as a smaller brand, which can give you a lot of credibility that you can't necessarily, you can't buy that. And so to me, that is a big focus for us is around being smart about our SEO strategy and continuing to invest heavily in that.

Edward: Yeah. That's great to hear it. And I'm a big fan of SEO, so we could geek out on that now, but let's not do that. Let's move forward. But one thing I want to is I know you also host a podcast called Real Marketers, so why did you decide to start and add a podcast to your marketing?

Stephanie: Oh, great question. So we've been hosting a podcast since fall of 2018, which I can't believe it's been almost two and a half years. But when we first started and the whole idea came up, I had never thought about hosting a podcast, for a couple of reasons. Back in 2018, most of the podcasts that I had heard about, I was not an avid listener back then, were more like the true-crime podcasts. So I wasn't even familiar with B2B brands doing it. And I thought it would be way too hard to get started. And so one of the things that really caused us to start thinking about it was I had ran in with interviews to someone and we met and we're just chatting about like, "Oh, what do you do, blah, blah, blah." And she actually happens to run a company that helps B2B brands, launch podcasts.

Stephanie: And I was like, "Oh, that's really interesting. Tell me more." And we didn't meet for the sole reason of like her trying us to meet. We had a mutual friend that we would enjoy meeting each other as women leaders in the community. And I started talking about what it's like, what brands see. And it kind of like was this light bulb moment where I went, "Why aren't we doing this? This makes so much sense." But I think for a lot of reasons, like I say before, like, why would I do it? It sounds really hard. How do you get guests on the show? I have no idea how to do any of those. It can be a little overwhelming to get started back then. And so really that is kind of how we got started thinking about getting started.

Stephanie: And then once we said, "Yes, we're in a podcast." It really became about like, "Well, why? Why are we going to do a podcast?" Now we know that we can, and we know how we can do it logistically. Why? And that's when I dived a lot into the podcasts that existed back then. And what I found was a lot of shows were either super high level where people talked about things. It was more like the presentations you might see on a keynote stage at a marketing conference, that are really great and inspirational, but they don't give you a lot of tactical information. Or it was a lot of the same people talking about the same things. And I want to do something different. I really wanted to find a way to one, connect marketers with other really smart marketing and tech leaders and tell their stories.

Stephanie: And I also wanted, selfishly to tie Lumavate's brand name to some bigger companies. Now, we're a company that is in scale-up mode, which means that we're not ginormous and being able to have the Lumavate name next to bigger brands has a lot of benefits to us from a PR perspective. And so that was really the why around getting it started. And it was a tremendous amount of work to get started. But I think now, looking back, it was such a smart decision, for a couple of reasons. One, we have so much content that we create. I record just like you're doing, you record an episode and you can take that episode and create 60 pieces of content from it. If you just spend the time doing it and you have a content creation machine at your fingertips. Second, you're able to get brand exposure, one, from your show itself, but then two, from every guest that's on your show likely, will promote it. So they're sharing the name of your show and your podcast with others.

Stephanie: And then three, it really does, depending on what your purpose is and who you have on, starts position you as a thought leader. And in the same echelon as the guests that you have on the show, which if you're looking to up-level your brand and tie it to bigger brands or tie it to bigger names, it's a really easy way to do that. And I think the thing that surprises most people is, you never will get someone on your show if you don't ask. I was able to get the CMO at MGM resorts on the show. I didn't know her. I didn't know the VP of digital at Crayola. I just asked, and they said, yes. And I think that's one of the cool things about podcasting, is there's a lot of ability to have conversations and help your audience learn and also I learned so much for my guests as well.

Edward: Yeah. That's awesome. And I totally know how you felt when starting out, jumping into the world of podcasting without having any idea. It can be scary, but for sure, it's yeah, definitely worth it in the long run. And if we just take one step back from marketing and add customer support, success and product into the picture. So how do all these departments and teams work together then at Lumavate.

Stephanie: Yeah. So we all work together pretty tightly. So I'll give you an example when a new customer comes on board. So sales closes a new customer with more of our traditional sales set process. They're going to have an IKT, Internal Knowledge Translation where they're going to meet with the person from customer success. And sometimes services are involved, sometimes they're not. And really onboard them to that new customer. And that's going to include things such as, what exactly did they purchase? Are there services involved? What do those include? What are the timelines we've committed to? What are the people involved in the customer side? Where are their personalities? What are the things we know about them? Because I think one of the things that's missed, oftentimes, when you have such disparate organisations, is this really consistent customer experience.

Stephanie: And I saw that before I took over all of these groups, as you know, in marketing, we might have this highly personalised experience, where it feels like we're marketing just to you. And then you go to sales. And if you don't have that same experience, or it feels like a slightly different, it almost feels like you're talking to a different company. And then you get passed over success. And if you have to explain the same things again, or if they don't know the things about you that your sales rep did, it just feels different. And so really what we want it to be is, from the first time you talked to someone at Lumavate, whatever they know about you, everyone that works with you should know about you and your company. And part of that reason is it really gives us this really continual thread of, no matter who you work with, you're getting the same level of expertise and the same level of care. And we know the same amount about your business. And it really makes us a more of a valued partner.

Stephanie: So that's how we think about it. So after an IKT, we have a kickoff meeting, as an example of services are involved. And you're going to have someone from sales on that. You're going to have someone from customer success and support and services if they're involved. And they're all going to work together. And there are different things on our project team around who's doing what. There are different roles that those people play because we're all here to make sure that they're successful. And then even after our customer is up and running on our platform, customer success and sales are going to work together on analytics. How do we make sure that the customer is using the platform the way that it was intended? How do we ensure that the app they've built on it is generating the results that they want?

Stephanie: Because really customer success and sales are tied together with renewals. While sales owns the renewal number, customer success has a goal around net revenue retention percentage. And so they need to work with our sales team hand in hand to say, "Hey, I've noticed this behaviour. It looks like there's an opportunity for upsell." Or, "Hey, they've not logged in, in this many days. We might need to reach out to them. Do you want to do that? Or do you want me to?" And it really is this joint effort. So that's how we think a lot about all the teams working together. While they're separate, they're also not. It really is more fluid organisation of passing the ball to each other versus like throwing it over the fence.

Edward: Yeah, that's so great. And I love that you can ensure consistent customer experience, which is so important in SaaS, but of course, this is a lot to cover. So I'd love to know what is your typical week look like?

Stephanie: Oh gosh, it's a lot of meetings. It really is. And it's funny because I can tell you so many times, I'm like, "I need fewer meetings. What can I get off my schedule?" And I do that whole effort where you look at your calendar and you're like, "What can I cancel or not go to?" And there's so little that I can really take off my schedule and it's hard. So I think, for me, what I try and do that works really well because I am over a lot of different areas, which means, I have a lot of one-on-ones. It also means that there are a lot of different people that have questions for me, or need my opinion on something. So what I like to do is really try and structure my week as much as possible.

Stephanie: So I do almost all of my one-on-ones on two days. I don't do them all on one day. I used to do that, it's way too much. So I like to break them up into two days. I also do my team meeting on Mondays. So, everyone that were direct reports to me, we have a team meeting. And I think find that super, super important for everyone to be up to date. I also, and my team will tell you this, I'm a night owl. So because I'm in meetings a lot after my kids go to bed, I'm often on my computer. And I always tell people like do as I say, not as I do. I'm going to send you emails at night. I am going to slack you things that might, please do not respond. Because that's when I can work, does not mean that's when I expect you to work.

Stephanie: But a lot of times I do, I do fun and have, really try and flush out things then, but it is a lot of meetings and a lot of conversations. Now, one of the things that have worked well for me is I've started blocking off Friday afternoons. And I call them and get shutdown time. Because if I don't, I find that I'll be in meetings like 36 hours out of a week. And it's hard to get done and stuff that I need to get done besides just responding to stuff and emails, et cetera. So by walking out Friday afternoons, usually after 1:00 PM. What it's allowed me to search and do, and I've only been doing those since the beginning of the year, but better prepare for the following week. I feel like the things I need to get done that week, it gives me time to ensure that I get them done.

Stephanie: And so I go into the weekend feeling like I'm more prepared for Monday versus feeling like I'm already behind from the previous week. And then I start Monday off behind. So that's been one thing that's been really, really helpful. And then the other thing I do a lot is talk to our customers. Before this, I was just talking to one of our newest customers, and I want them as much as possible to know who I am. I oversee everyone that works with customers. So I want them, whether that's through a video, that we send via email, whether that's through me hopping on a call. I want them to know who I am. I want them to know that I'm a contact. So if they have any concerns or any praise they want to say about the team that they know that they can share it with me and that I'm here to help as much as I can.

Edward: Yeah, that's really cool. And I think a great idea in terms of booking a Friday afternoon and getting yourself set up for the following week. So I'd love to ask though, how many direct reports do you have and how would you say your time is split between those different departments or teams?

Stephanie: It varies a great amount. And so right now it's six, I've had as many as nine, nine is a lot of direct reports. I would tell you my time varies every week. So right now, because we are towards end of quarter, I likely will be spending more time with our sales team over the next week, if I were to say percentage-wise. Whereas last week I spent a lot of time with our marketing team. And then today I've been on calls primarily with our customer success and services team most of the day.

Edward: Okay, cool. Yeah, that's good to know. And I think nine is definitely the upper limits of direct reports, but one final thing I'd like to ask before we jump over to our final questions is that, in your LinkedIn profile, one thing you've written is that, "I'm a recovering perfectionist who believes you should ship new initiatives as fast as possible, and constantly iterate on them based on the data speed is greater than perfection." Which I absolutely love. And I think speed is vital in any modern SaaS team. So how do you move fast and actually build speed into all the things you do at Lumavate?

Stephanie: Well, I think first it's being really honest with that's who you are as a person. So whenever someone tries to recruit me, I always tell them, I'm the person that's going to come in and sit on her hands for a week, maybe two, and then she's going to want to blow stuff up. If you need someone that's going to come in and listen to you talk for 30 to 90 days and then formulate a plan, I am not your girl. Because that's just not how I move. I know one speed it's running. It's how I am with everything in life. And so I think one being really honest with who you are and finding a company that appreciates that because you can't move fast in companies that don't allow it.

Stephanie: I think the second thing is being really just honest with your team around what fast looks like to you. And when I say fast, sometimes people think like, "Oh, that means working a lot." Well, sometimes it might, but it doesn't necessarily. It just means a pace of what we're going to do. We're not going to sit and have 12 conversations about a decision, we're going to make a decision and see what happens. Because one of the things that people, I think sometimes forget, is in this digital age, I don't necessarily need to have a perfect decision out there. It's not like print. Like when I started my career back in the back in the day, when you did a campaign and it was in print, it had to be perfect because once it was printed, you couldn't take it back. Whereas right now, if we make a mistake on the website, copy, guess what I can do in two minutes, change the website copy. I can take down the Google ad. There's a lot I can do.

Stephanie: So I always, one, I think just people realising that and realising that it's okay to make mistakes and it's okay to fail. Not everything will go well, is the other part. And then what I tell the team on is we're going to run fast. And sometimes that means, we're all going to, we did this a couple of weeks ago, we're on our team meeting on Monday, I said, "Okay, this is what we want to accomplish. We're going to stop everything else we're doing this week. And we're all going to work on this." And we put together in a Google doc, all the things that needed to get done. And then literally for 48 hours, everyone would just work on that stuff on there and was commenting on each other and telling everyone else when things were pushed out.

Stephanie: And it really creates this excitement momentum. Because I think people that work in tech like to move fast. Now, some people don't right? And at larger organisations that might be harder. But if you hire people, when you tell them, "We move fast, we're going to have you, I want you to test out those ads. I want you to ship them, get the vibe. And we'll put a little bit of budget behind them and see what happens." We're not going to put $10,000 worth of budget behind it tomorrow, but let's put $500, we'll see what happens. Let's put $1,000, let's see what happens. And then learn from it and make iterations. One, I think that gives people the opportunity to be a lot more creative and it encourages them to move fast. Because they know that you're not going to hold them to whatever it is as being the final ultimate perfect thing. So I really am focused on moving fast as a person and surrounding myself with other people who believe that.

Edward: Yeah, absolutely. That was awesome. And blow shit up. I think if you write three words down from this in your episode notes, then those are the three, blow shit up. I love it. Awesome. Well, this was super good. And we can now move to our closing questions and our fast five challenge. So I will ask five questions and all you need to do is answer as quickly as possible. So Stephanie, are you ready?

Stephanie: Yes.

Edward: Cool. And this is very appropriate since we're just speaking about speed and being fast. So number one, what is the one book you would recommend others to read?

Stephanie: The Four Agreements.

Edward: Great. Second question SaaS company you love and why?

Stephanie: Well, I'm super biased. I love Lumavate. But I'll tell you why I love it even though I work here. I love it because it empowers marketers to build apps by themselves without code, without development. And if you've ever been in a mobile space before, that sounds absolutely crazy. And we're empowering marketers to do it all by themselves. And I think it's a fundamental shift that's happening in the world and needs to happen. Marketers need to be able to do more.

Edward: Awesome. So anyone listening who wants to go and build their own app, but haven't been able to do so. Well, go check out Lumavate after listening to this episode. Third question I just say. Favourite place to read about marketing online.

Stephanie: Twitter.

Edward: Yes. Full of good stuff. Fourth question. Most important growth metric.

Stephanie: For a software company? Monthly active users.

Edward: Great. And then fifth and final question. Best piece of advice for fellow marketers.

Stephanie: Don't stay in your lane.

Edward: Nice. Well, Stephanie, I have to say this was absolutely awesome. And I just want to thank you again so much for coming on the Growth Hub podcast.

Stephanie: My pleasure. It's been great chatting with you.